A Conversation with one of my Muslim Friends…

Here’s what my friend wrote (ensuing conversation will be in the comment section):

Nice blog.  Yeah, so, my last message was about what your wife said about the Bible, God’s word, and our limited understanding.  She said that as far as she knows, there shouldn’t be any contradictions in the Bible and God’s word.  And also Louie once said that not everything makes sense in the Bible (I’m not sure if he still believes that, and your wife and Louie clearly have opposing views on this matter).  And lastly, you were using logical reasoning in our last conversation.  So what I want to know is 1.  Why does your wife still believe in the Bible when she says that there shouldn’t be any contradictions in it, when there clearly is…let me explain…Christians say God is infinite and Jesus is God, Jesus existing in a human being clearly says that he is finite because he went the sleep, the bathroom, ate, and most of all he died.  Now to say one is the other is clearly a contradiction.  2.  Why does Louie say not everything makes sense in the Bible…don’t you think it should?  3.  You’ve used logical reasoning in our last conversation and I’m sure you use it on a daily basis as well, so now, as I state and explain this argument about a contradiction in the Bible or what most Christians believe…will you use logic when you think about it and reply back to me?

P.S.  Saying God is an infinite being and Jesus, a human (it won’t matter if you say he is half god), is God, is undoubtedly and undeniably a contradiction when you use your limited logical reasoning…and I’m sorry, but I have to say, if you don’t see this as a contradiction then you are clearly not using your logic that God gave you and it would certainly show that you choose to ignore a truth.

Thanks for your time Pastor,
Raafiel

Raf,

Thanks for your email.  Let me answer your questions out of order but according to your numbering.

3.  Yes.

2.  I don’t know exactly why Louie says that (did you want me to guess?).  Yes I think it should make sense, but that is not the same as saying it is all easily comprehensible.  Take what Peter writes for example (2 Peter 3.15-16): “And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.”  Scripture says it’s all profitable for teaching, reproof, correction, and training in righteousness.  But that doesn’t mean it’s easy to understand all of it.

1.  My wife still believes the Bible because what you cited as a contradiction is not a necessary contradiction.  For a full view of what our church believes about Jesus Christ you can read article (7) on our blog.  I won’t take the time to re-articulate that here in full.  If you want to pursue why it is not a necessary contradiction then let’s do that.  But let me say here that Jesus is not half God, but fully God and fully man.  So let me ask you a question: “If God is infinite and all powerful to do whatever he wants, is it impossible (and illogical) for him, as the one who is fully God, to become fully human (including finitude), while remaining fully God (including infinitude)?”

Thanks Raf.

Hope all is well,

PJ

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About pjtibayan

I love Jesus Christ and live to share life and share Jesus together with First Southern Baptist Church of Bellflower primarily to Southeast Los Angeles County.
This entry was posted in Apologetics, evangelism, Islam, private conversations/blogs/comments. Bookmark the permalink.

3 Responses to A Conversation with one of my Muslim Friends…

  1. Raafiel says:

    Hahaha…no I don’t want you to guess what Louie said. I just figured that the fact that he said that about the Bible, whatever the reason was, was enough to question why he said that because for those that believe in the 1 God who has no sons or daughters, the qur’an makes total sense…no one who believes in it will have any doubt or ever say that something doesn’t make sense in it; I just thought you thought the same about the Bible.

    So you’ll use your logic…that’s great! Now you’re talking about a ‘necessary contradiction’… So in other words, it’s not a contradiction worth paying attention too, am I following you correctly? Or it’s not necessary or worthy enough to be a contradiction, in your church’s view…?

    If we stay with our logic and the true essence or definiton of a Creator/God, then God being fully God and fully man is ILLOGICAL. It’s simple! If God is 100% God and 100% man, then that means God becomes 2 whole different entities, agree? Then, if you worship these 2 entities as being fully God and as being fully man, then that would clearly be polytheism if you worship both. Or it would also mean you have 2 Gods because you worship both, and both are fully what you believe them to be.

    And just because we both believe God can do whatever God wants, it still doesn’t mean God can be illogical…if we believe God is logical. God cannot and would not be both illogical and logical; not even for one moment!

  2. pjtibayan says:

    You wrote: “So in other words, it’s not a contradiction worth paying attention too, am I following you correctly? Or it’s not necessary or worthy enough to be a contradiction, in your church’s view…?”

    No you are not following me correctly. Necessary contradiction would be 1+1=2 and 1+1 does not equal 2. A not necessary contradiction is where one is not saying two contradicting things at the same time and instance. For example: “PJ went to the store. PJ went home.” Is that a contradiction? Possibly. If I went to the store and went home at the exact same moment, then it would be a contradiction.” But it is not NECESSARILY a contradiction IF I went to the store and went home at different times or if my home was the store.

    You wrote: If we stay with our logic and the true essence or definiton of a Creator/God, then God being fully God and fully man is ILLOGICAL. It’s simple! If God is 100% God and 100% man, then that means God becomes 2 whole different entities, agree?

    I don’t agree that they are two whole different entities I’m not claiming to understand exhaustively or comprehensively the full humanity and full deity of Jesus, but it’s clear what God has revealed and it is not a necessary contradiction. We are saying as Christians that Jesus is fully God and fully man in one person. He is not divided into two different persons. What do you mean by entities anyway? That might clarify some things for me in our discussion.

    When you use percentages like 100% God and 100% man, mathematically that sounds illogical and I can agree with that. But most people when they say that they mean “fully” God and “fully man.” Jesus was not half man, half God. He was fully both. Again, without claiming exhaustive knowledge, one can say that they are fully a son and fully a father at the same time, but in different senses.

    You wrote: And just because we both believe God can do whatever God wants, it still doesn’t mean God can be illogical…if we believe God is logical. God cannot and would not be both illogical and logical; not even for one moment!

    When you say God is logical, I agree. But where we may disagree is that I think my understanding of logic and what is logical is NOT comprehensive. I don’t know everything. God does. So it is possible that something could be logical and consistent with God that I can’t understand fully or comprehensively. So when God says he can do all things and says that his Son fully became man born through Mary when she was still a virgin so that even as a human he is still fully God, I can believe that. It’s not NECESSARILY illogical, because even you’d agree that if God, who created logic and makes it consistent with who he is, wanted to become a man while remaining God, it is within his ability to do so.

    I think it’s illogical to think that we as humans can comprehensively know what is logical and then judge the revelation of God by our limited understanding. If there was a necessary contradiction in God I’d have to reconsider, but to this point you have not provided one.

    Peace.

    ps. Check out this article on the Trinity which would give good food for thought and discussion: http://www.theologynetwork.org/christian-beliefs/doctrine-of-god/starting-out/the-good-news-of-the-trinity.htm

  3. Raafiel says:

    Ok, but, if Jesus is God the same time that God is God, and Jesus died, wouldn’t that be a necessary contradiction because Jesus and God existed at the same time and to say that Jesus died would be a necessary contradiction because how can Jesus/God die at the same time God exists…!?!

    Wow! How can Jesus be fully man and fully God in one person!?! Logically, can I be fully Filipino and fully Mexican??? You say God is not divided into 2 persons or God is not this or that, but to say one thing and to believe and conceptualize it is a whole different thing. You may say it is not so, but you are conceptualizing/believing it to be. It’s kind of like you’re just tricking yourself or someone is tricking you.

    What I mean by entities is “being or existence, esp. when considered as distinct, independent, or self-contained: He conceived of society as composed of particular entities requiring special treatment.” God existed, that is one entity. Jesus existed, that is one entity. Anything that exists is an entity, especially when you say someone is FULLY something. Again, here is where you are saying one thing, “Jesus and God are not 2 different entities or beings”, but conceptualizing and believing the opposite.

    You are right that one can say I am a son and a father in different senses! And that is the only sense that is acceptable! So that is the same sense that Jesus was saying! You(Christians) are the ones who are misunderstanding or doing something to what Jesus really said. This is also why we do not call God, Father…it’s not the right term for God because a father is you, and in no way will God refer God’s self as something that you are. It’s like God saying, “I am your brother.”

    Lastly, I never and don’t agree that God can be man, while remaining God…it gives a contradiction to God’s infinity. If Superman shows and tells people he can run faster than a bullet, and then Superman puts on a different suit, while saying he still is the superman we all know, and just for one moment he shows and people see that he runs like an old man…how are people going to believe that he is really what he says he is…

    How can God, who says “I never sleep”…turn around and show people that he is sleeping? Jesus is Jesus. God is God.

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